Tobin

4505 N Haight Ave 97217 (NE)

heat and hot water

calcs

How many BTUs are transferred in 1 hour between water at 137 ° and 110 ° if there is 8sf of copper heat exchange tubing?

assume water->copper->water exchange rate is:

<math>

h = 60\frac{BTU}{ft^2 hr ^{\circ}F}, \Delta T=27 ^{\circ} F </math>

and knowing

<math>

Q = h\Delta T A </math>

<math>

Q = 60\frac{BTU}{ft^2 hr ^{\circ}F} * 27 ^{\circ}F * 8ft^2 * 1hr = 12,960\frac{BTU}{hr} </math>

So on the coldest day of winter if you stayed in the shower all day you'd provide 1/2 your heat.

How many linear feet of 3/4" copper tubing is 8sf

<math>

ft = \frac{8ft^2}{\frac{3}{4}\frac{1}{12}\pi} = 40.7ft </math>

At 5gpm what is the flow rate in 3/4 copper tubing?

knowing: <math> 1gal = .133681ft^3 </math> and <math> A = \left(\frac{3}{4}\frac{1}{12}\right)^2\pi=.0123ft^2</math>

<math> Velocity = flow rate / A</math>

<math> V = 5\frac{gal}{min}*.133681\frac{ft^3}{gal}*\frac{1min}{60sec}\frac{1}{.0123ft^2}=3.6\frac{ft}{sec}</math>

How long does it take water to move through the heat exchanger at 5gpm?

<math>V=\frac{x}{t}, t=\frac{x}{V}, \frac{ 40.7ft}{3.6\frac{ft}{sec}}=11.3 sec</math>

How many BTUs get transferred in 11.3 seconds?

<math>12,960\frac{BTU}{hr}*\frac{1hr}{3600sec}*11.3sec=40.7BTU</math>

if 40.7BTUs get transferred out of the hot water how much does its temperature go down?

<math> gallons in heat exchanger = 5\frac{gal}{min}*\frac{1min}{60sec}*11.3 sec= .94gal*\frac{8.35lb}{gal}=7.86lb</math>

<math>Q=mc\Delta T, \Delta T = \frac{Q}{mc} = \frac{40.7BTU}{7.86lb*.998\frac{Btu}{lb*^{\circ}F}}=5.19^{\circ}F</math>

design

an ever-increasing percentage of future hydronics systems will operate at water temperatures of 120 degrees F or less under design load conditions. This is especially true if these systems include renewable energy heat sources. Optimizing energy efficiency is now the motivation for low water temperatures. New heat emitters as well as classic low-temperature radiant panels are the enabling technology. I urge everyone in the North American hydronics industry to embrace low-temperature hydronics and tool up to deliver solutions that ensure its implementation.

• heat loss calculator from buiditsolay dyi site

• sizing for on-demand hw

Sample problem: given the above specs, if you used one coil connected from tankless system delivering at 6gpm and 140 degrees-

a) what would the temperature of the water be at the shower head?

b)how much would it heat the water in the tank in 12 minutes if the tank water temperature started at 100degrees?

c) what if you used the other coil to preheat the water going into the tankless?

You know:

• sf of heat exchanger, pressure drop through coil in feet
• output in in gal/hr maintaining a 90 degree rise if you run from a certain size boiler at 200 degrees a loop at 10gpm

240gph = 4gpm

on calculating head loss

• pressure regulated valves "head loss also could be estimated by assuming a typical main’s piping sizing criteria of 3 to 5 feet of head loss per 100 feet of pipe. The latter is a common rule of thumb used by some engineers."

3way diverter valves

• When selecting three-way diverter valves, choose a valve that creates a low pressure drop. I suggest selecting valves that will not create more than a 1 psi pressure drop, or 2.3 feet of head loss, at full design flow rate. The latter criteria will be met if you select a valve with a Cv (flow coefficient) approximately equal to the design flow rate.

• ergomax puts dhw in the coil and the boiler water in the tank

Hi,

I am impressed with your Ergomax indirect tank product and your approach to system design. I am involved with groups who are working on HVAC/DHW alternatives in the Northwest based upon 'junk heat'. This is related to radiant hydronic designs with pex embedded on the slab requiring only 100 degrees F.

Your approach of running the DHW through the heat exchange coil is intriguing. We are looking to implement systems in which the DHW comes from an on-demand instant HW heater (like those from Navien or Rinnai), and, on its way to the shower head, goes through a heat exchange coil, delivering some heat to a tank. The water in that tank is then circulated into the low temp hydronic system. Additionally, other sources like heat from our woeful 2-5 sun-hours a day solar collectors could be added to the tank water.

Our basic questions are as follows:

• Would 140 degree hot water delivered from the on-demand heater at 8-10gpm create enough turbulence to combat scaling within the heat exchanger?
• Would you consider this application to be within your warrantee?

Thanks,

Tim McKenna 857 498-2574

• techtanium specs
• heatflo tank specs

John Siegenthaler

What kind of mechanical system fits the needs of these builders? Here’s a listing of the qualities I feel should be part of the solution.

1. A highly efficient, modestly sized, modulation/condensing, sealed combustion heat source. It could be a “box” that goes on the wall, or an assembly that fits onto or into a storage vessel. For reasons that will become apparent as you read on, a burner turndown ratio of 3:1 is very sufficient. There is no need to complicate the solution with the controls and sensors necessary to achieve high turndown ratios such as 10:1. This is true even though the system will use room-by-room zoning.

2. A very well-insulated storage vessel. Think of it as an oversized Thermos bottle designed for a high degree of vertical temperature stratification (hot at the top, significantly cooler at the bottom). Heat from the heat source is parked within the thermal mass of this storage vessel until needed by the room-by-room zoned distribution system. This vessel provides the buffering mass that prevents what has become the Achilles heel of many mod/con boilers — short cycling under low loads. This thermal mass also provides a way to deliver “bursts” of domestic hot water at rates that may be significantly greater than what the heat source could supply on a steady basis. If upsized, this vessel could also serve as the storage tank for a modest array of solar thermal collectors.

3. The solution would include a homerun distribution system, based from a single valveless manifold. Half-inch PEX or PEX-AL-PEX tubing would run from this manifold to a properly sized panel radiator in each room. Each panel radiator would be equipped with a nonelectric thermostatic radiator valve. This would allow each panel to continually adjust its heat output to match changing solar or other internal heat gains.

Such gains can have a much more pronounced effect on comfort in super-insulated houses. A low-mass panel radiator with a thermostatic valve has the necessary response characteristics to deal with this.

4. All flow through the distribution system would be handled by a single small ECM-powered, pressure-regulated circulator with a peak electrical input demand of 40 watts or less.

5. Domestic water heating would be provided instantaneously through a small, stainless-steel, brazed-plate heat exchanger mounted outside, yet close to the storage vessel. A flow switch similar to those used in other “tankless” water heaters would engage a “microcirculator” that would immediately move hot water from the storage vessel through the primary side of the heat exchanger. The low mass and high internal surface area of this heat exchanger would have hot domestic water flowing out the other side within one or two seconds. If this heat exchanger ever fouls or fails, it could be easily replaced without disturbing the storage vessel or other parts of the system.

6. If solar collectors will be included with the solution, or added in the future, they will be configured, along with the storage vessel, for drainback freeze protection. There is no need for antifreeze, heat dumps or diverting valves. A single, variable-speed collector circulator would operate at full speed to “prime the siphon” of the collector loop, and then drop back to a reduced speed based on the temperature rise across the collector.

7. Under most conditions, water temperature within the storage vessel would be controlled based on simple outdoor reset. If the solar option was included in the solution, a mixing valve would be used to protect the distribution system from what might be very hot water in the storage vessel at the end of a sunny day.

All these features need to come together in a way that makes the product into an “appliance” rather than a collection of several hundred individual components that are assembled on site. The latter approach, while dominant over the last three decades of hydronic heating, is simply too complicated and time consuming to be seen as a packaged “solution” by those designing low-energy-use houses. It’s simply a nonstarter with this crowd, and for good reason.

A schematic showing one way that most of the above requirement could come together is shown in Figure 1. -excerpt from article A New Audience For Hydronics by John Siegenthaler, P.E. January 1, 2011

This schematic is not the final way these hardware concepts will go to market. Most of the individual components shown will need to be preassembled into a compact, fully serviceable appliance.

• John Siegenthaler columns on HydronicsThe Glitch and the Fix
  • hyrdraulic separation

• sizing indirect system contactor mag on sizing

"Code changes on the horizon will likely require 140° F delivery temperatures from potable hot water point-ofsource devices to combat bacteria growth"

• bacterial contamination

"An open radiant system is where radiant floor heat is mixed with domestic hot water. This condition, may create a hazardous situation, because the low water temperature (below 140 degrees) is conducive to bacteria growth in the tubing. It is best to keep the domestic water system separated from the heating system water. For information on safe potable hot water go to the Centers for Disease Control website at www.cdc.gov." http://www.krelldistributing.com/open_vs_closed.htm

• navien CH-180

Hi,

1) The specs for your CH-180 and other units shows that the flow rate increases as the delta T falls. I am considering using a Navien unit in combination with solar system in which cold water travels through a heat exchanger in a solar storage tank, preheated on its way to the cold water input of the Navien. What is the minimum delta T that the unit requires? What is the maximum input 'cold' water temperature? Is there a delta T at which the Navien will just do nothing? 2)Considering a model with recirculation similar to CR-210A What determines when and at what level a unit using recirculation fires? Is it the temperature difference between exiting and entering hot water? What is that difference? Is it controllable? How much water can the internal pump push around? How much pressure drop can you have in an external recirculation loop? Thanks Tim McKenna 857 498 2574

• house needs (lots on pex systems)

• cost effectiveness study

specs

Portland area= 4693 degree days/design temp 24

Characteristics	 Smart 30	 Smart 40	 Smart 50	 Smart 60	 Smart 80	 Smart 100
Heat Surface (sq. ft.)	 13	 16	 20	 24	 28	 34
Boiler Water Capacity
(Gal)	 5	 6	 8	 8	 14	 17
Capacity (gal)	 28	 36	 46	 56	 70	 95
Boiler Output (MBH)	 87	 112	 140	 270	 300	 337
Output (gal)  90-Degree Rise - 200-degree boiler water supply
First Hour	 140	 180	 220	 410	 460	 525
Continuous	 115	 150	 185	 360	 400	 450
Peak/Flow
Gallons/10 minutes	 40	 50	 65	 100	 125	 150
Connections (inch)
Domestic - MPT	 3/4"	 3/4"	 3/4"	 3/4"	 1 1/2"	 1 1/2"
Boiler - MPT	 1"	 1"	 1 1/4"	 1 1/4"	 1 1/2"	 1 1/2"
Recirculation	 3/4"	 3/4"	 3/4"	 3/4"	 1 1/2"	 1 1/2"
Dimensions (inch)
Diameter	 22	 22	 22	 22	 26	 26
Height	 38	 46	 57	 66	 61	 78
Shipping Weight (lbs)	 115	 135	 165	 190	 315	 340

or 
The Heat-Flo stainless steel

 	 HF-30	 HF-40	 HF-40 (low)	 HF-50	 HF-60	 HF-60 (low)	 HF-80	 HF-115
Capacity (gal)	 30	 40	 40	 50	 60	 60	 80	 115
Min Boiler Water Flow Through Coil (gpm)	 10	 10	 10	 10	 10	 10	 10	 10
Pressure Drop Through Coil (in feet)	 3.4	 3.5	 3.5	 3.6	 3.9	 3.9	 3.9	 3.9
Coil Heating Surface (sq.feet)	 7.1	 7.4	 7.4	 8.0	 8.3	 8.3	 8.3	 8.7
Max Working Pressure (psi feet)	 150 psi	 150 psi	 150 psi	 150 psi	 150 psi	 150 psi	 150 psi	 150 psi
Boiler Output (Btu/hr)	 117,500	 124,500	 123,000	 124,500	 139,700	 136,500	 139,700	 139,700
Output (gal) *
First Hour	 244	 266	 265	 289	 312	 306	 330	 365
Continuous	 217	 230	 227	 244	 258	 252	 258	 265
Connections (inch)
Domestic - NPT	 3/4"	 3/4"	 3/4"	 3/4"	 3/4"	 3/4"	 1"	 1"
Boiler - NPT	 1"	 1"	 1"	 1"	 1"	 1"	 1"	 1"
Dimensions (inch)
Diameter	 22.5	 22.5	 26.5	 22.5	 22.5	 26.5	 26.5	 26.5
Height	 32.0	 42.0	 34.0	 52.0	 60.0	 44.0	 54.0	 72.0
Shipping Weight (lbs)	 85	 100	 100	 110	 125	 120	 139	 175
  * Based on a 200 degree boiler water supply and a 50 degree cold water input.

The Heat-Flo stainless steel

	HF-30	HF-40	HF-40 (low)	HF-50	HF-60	HF-60 (low)	HF-80	HF-115
Capacity (gal)	30	40	40	50	60	60	80	115
Min Boiler Water Flow Through Coil (gpm)	10	10	10	10	10	10	10	10
Pressure Drop Through Coil (in feet)	3.4	3.5	3.5	3.6	3.9	3.9	3.9	3.9
Coil Heating Surface (sq.feet)	7.1	7.4	7.4	8.0	8.3	8.3	8.3	8.7
Max Working Pressure (psi feet)	150 psi	150 psi	150 psi	150 psi	150 psi	150 psi	150 psi	150 psi
Boiler Output (Btu/hr)	117,500	124,500	123,000	124,500	139,700	136,500	139,700	139,700
Output (gal) *
First Hour	244	266	265	289	312	306	330	365
Continuous	217	230	227	244	258	252	258	265

PERFORMANCE RATINGS	TT-40	TT-55	TT-79	TT-119
CAPACITY (Gallons)	40	55	79	119
HEAT EXCHANGER SURFACE AREA SQ.FT.	14	14	26	26
RECOMM. FLOW RATE GPM (Boiler Water)	10	10	14	14
PRESSURE DROP PSI (Heat Exchanger)	2.3	2.3	11	11
FIRST HR. RATINGS GPH 90 DEGREE RISE	188	225	295	376
CONTINUOUS FLOW GPH 90 DEGREE RISE	160	187	240	293
FIRST HR. RATINGS GPH 70 DEGREE RISE	233	277	363	460
CONTINUOUS FLOW GPH 70 DEGREE RISE	205	239	308	377
BOILER SIZE BTU'S REQUIRED	120,000	140,000	180,000	220,000
NOTE: Above ratings based on boiler maintaining temperature of 180 degree's Fahrenheit

interior framing and mechanicals

wiring reqs

devices per circuit

• ~8-10/15 amp general lighting circuit or 80% of 1800 watts 15*120
• 2 20 amp gfi receptacle only circuits for kitchen
• 1 dedicated 20 amp gfci for bath

wires/box

Add up the wires and devices, A K A "conductor equivalents" (wires that start and end in the box -- pigtails -- aren't counted)

Each current-carrying wire = 1

All ground wires together = 1

All clamps together = 1

Each receptacle or switch = 2

Multiply the number of conductor equivalents (total from step one) by their volume factor in cubic inches (listed below)

14-ga. wire takes 2 cu. in. per conductor

12-ga. wire takes 2.25 cu. in. per conductor

10-ga. wire takes 2.5 cu. in. per conductor

If a box contains different gauges of wire, use actual volume factors for the wires and the largest volume factor for ground wires, devices, and clamps.

todolist

• get sills - installed, look pretty good/strong. I had to get creative
• install doors - MR door in. Big one by end of week. Siding again this weekend
• fix or get fixed second framing nailer. - Fixed, works well
• find and order tub (takes 2 weeks) - been working on it. Plan to order by Friday. Do you have am Opinion on materials? Jet-tub is out
• order CPE for shower and special shower drain. easy to get drain, was thinking about a linear/trench drain at the base of the tub. Stupid expensive to buy them. Thoughts on forming a trench in the mud with a normal drain underneath? The SSteel sheet metal cover would be easy.
• order any weird fittings what did you have in mind?
• cut access from attic to 2nd floor I'm committed to doing this. Maybe next week mid-week?
• do take off and order framing material working on this
• get stuff for so we can pour radiant bath floor.
• make sure my bike works
• figure out the electrical panel location and get new one there are some nice old looking ones at the rebuilding center. "that was there"

You probably need to have all the framing stock there AND we will need that second framing nailer fixed!!! But more on the critical path is having plumbing stuff that needs to be ordered now!!

DWV

We've got to figure out and get all the stuff forb DWV piping plus specialty stuff for the shower pan plus the tub - recommend a drop in Here's a whirlpool that is really inexpensive Some of this stuff takes weeks to get (tub takes 7-10 days). For tub the ideal would be tile flanges on 3 sides but no apron. . Maybe check and see what they've got at that recycle center, perhaps a nice clawfoot tub. We need to figure out the DWV layout and put together a list of fittings. Here is a sample drawing We at least need a schematic drawing like this one from chestnut

The trickiest fitting will probably be this: Sanitary Tee With Left Side Inlet, Pipe Size 3 x 3 x 3 x 2 In, Hub Connection, Material of Construction ABS, Grainger Item # 3GUR4 Your Price (ea.) $17.37 Brand MUELLER INDUSTRIES The 2" on the side can pick uo the tub and shower. Not sure how we will get the sink. Mfr. Model # 02782

shower

You need cpe liner and and a drain that clamps on with weepholes These guys distribute it. http://www.oatey.com/Channel/Exclusive/Oatey_Wholesalers.html

Here's a good basic tutorial on how to do it. And here's the site http://www.oatey.com/Channel/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/115/Shower+Drains+for+Tile+Shower+Bases.html

code snippets

http://www.3dplumbing.net/ontplumbing/ freakin canadiens

• Total change of direction between a trap and its vent <= 135degree
• example

sample piping layouts

http://winnipeg.ca/ppd/pdf_files/PlbgInfo.pdf

electrical

Avoid another hefty permit fee. Install panel and say it was always there.

plans - corrections and additions

found-s1

• change floor and foundation elevations relative to 104'existing subfloor

x1

• show the grade as 8" below floor height at back of house

building materials&technique

foundation/slab

FOUNDATION NOTES

Hi Zac,

Tobin asked that I contact you and discuss the foundation.

It is a bit odd to be working over this distance and to be out of the Boston building scene. I was a builder for 32 years, building new houses for over 20 years. Mostly I built first-time homebuyer 2-3 story, 1-4 family urban infill housing, in 10-14 unit projects on lots vacant either by arson or the difficulty in building on them. Sometimes there were houses there before or there was garbage or peat or pudding stone or a steep hill. I worked for many different developers, architects and city agencies. We would build houses for prices my carpenters could afford. Our competition was the modular guys.

My foundation sub would run 8' walls + footings for $15/linear foot. In around 100 houses we hardly ever used anything but 10"x20" footings, occasionally 10" x 24" We built full basements mostly, 10" walls, a few rows of #4 bar, sometimes vertical @ 2' or 4' OC, occasionally we had dowels coming out of the footing into the wall.

When I got home from vacation on Sunday and got to look at a set of plans I was surprised how engineered it was. This is a little house and a small addition. This morning I went through the foundation (ch4) and wall construction (ch6) of the 2011 OR residential specialty code for 1-2 family houses. Everything seemed familiar and not so engineered.

Footings in seismic D1 need to have (1) # 4 bar horiz.lengthwise and @4'OC vertically extending 14" into the wall. The wall needs (1) #4 horizontally within the first 12" and maybe another halfway down. Looking at the braced wall panel requirements for the first floor, where we don't meet the continuous sheathing with structural wall panels (WSP) reqs, it looks like all you need is 1800LBF for the hold_downs. You can get that and more just sinking those DTT22 strap anchors 10" into the concrete and fastening to the studs through the sheathing. All if this can be done by the proverbial equivalent to $15/lf form guys, there 3 hours for the footings and a day for the walls. Tobin and/or I would be there to lay it out, shoot the grades and set the anchors.

For this job BOF to TOW is only about 26" in most cases, so with 10" footings the stem wall is from 1-3' high. In talking to you from my vacation I optimistically understood that the only real change was going to be turning the corner on the north wall to support the shear wall by the refrigerator.

With the 16" deep footings and the complex steel and the squirrelly anchor bolts that go through the entire wall and footing (and sometimes through the bottom of the footings), the $15/lf guys are out of their league. They can't really and don't want to do 16" deep footings or anything non-standard. So you have to hire the kind of guys you give the plans to and they charge you an extra $2-3K and it takes an extra couple of days. Tobin is on a tight budget and can afford neither the added expense or the time.

I'd like to figure out a more cost effective solution that you feel good about. It seems the sticking point is the connection line between the addition and the house. My initial sense was that the new condition isn't that much more unbalanced than the present condition of finish grade 8" from TOF. I was thinking 2" of foam to isolate the existing floor framing and sill from the new slab and that since the existing foundation is loaded by the house and laterally supported by the floor framing, it could easily take the compaction and the edge of the slab could be thickened to extend below the existing sill.

I wouldn't have a problem pouring a 10" deep footing across that span with a couple of horizontal lengthwise bars tied into each corner, effectively closing the loop. I don't see why most of the rest couldn't be according to the prescriptive code as described above. Under the refrigerator sheer wall I'd like to stay with a 10" deep footing but we could make it wider and add some more steel there. I'm not sure what I am missing. The addition is so small, the foundation will end up essentially with balanced backfill and there is floor 9' above tieing all the walls together.

I think this is a good design. Tobin and Laura will be happy every winter day when they step on their floor. But if we can't simplify it and make it more prescriptive and less expensive then maybe he should end up back to a crawl space and a framed first floor. I hope that doesn't happen. Talk to you tomorrow. Tobin knows my constraints, I'll let him schedule the time with you.

Tim McKenna
857-498 2574

1. ALL CONCRETE SHALL BE MINIMUM 2500 PSI
2. ASSUMED SOIL BEARING PRESSURE 1500 PSI
3. FILL UNDER SLAB TO BE GRANULAR MATERIAL (3/4"-0") COMPACTED TO 95%
4. SEE DETAILS ON S-2

Nat from Portland in green building forum on ICF's

• Amvic forms (can be gotten locally)

Jaeger & Associates

1123 South East Street

McMinnville, OR 97128

email: jgjaeger@msn.com

Phone: 503.442.5161

Hi,

I am interested in using lego blocks for a little stem wall application. ICould you give me a price(breakdown) and availability. The following is a stock list for Amvic 8"wallls

reversible blocks:

(24) straight -> 48" x 16" x 13"

(6) 90 degree corner -> [28.5" + 16.5"] x 16" x 13"

(2) 45 degree corner -> [22" + 10"] x 10" x 13"

foam gun

foam for 72 lf

Can this amount of stuff fit in a pickup? or How many days/dollars for delivery to:

4505 N Haight Ave

Portland OR, 97217 (NE)

Thanks, Tim McKenna mckenna.tim@gmail.com 857 498-2574

• Fox Blocks
• Build Block

Sylvan Construction Inc. DEALER Contact: Alan Naylor, V.P. Address: 6995 SW Juniper Terrace Beaverton, OR 97008 Phone: 503-641-2811 Fax: 770-425-8483 Email: alannaylor@msn.com

A nice radiant slab detail is shown below and further described in this site by radiantcompany.com

lumber

Robert Randall Straight talk about hip and valley rafters from jlc

• lumber prices a price list for lumber (not local)]
• map to milwaukie lumber
• map to Parr lumber

house info

• assessor maps
• zillow listing
• google map
• photos picassa

conversations

7/7

There is a new drawing B in docs. I moved the addition 2" away from the existing house and then fooled with the other slopes and ceiling heights. I made the ceiling in the new space 9', the slope 7/12 and the clear space in the corners ~4'high. The wireframe lines are all the outermost lines of the framing.

6/28

I looked at making the plan more buildable and less engineered. The idea is to make the box a 24'x24' square. Then the 4 valley rafters land on the 4 corners of the box. The corners can hold up the valleys and we will have a center post anyway. Once the framing is done and the roof is felted then just go to demo.

Take off the entire existing roof and put it in a dumpster. Say we will use the existing walls but we'll put them in the dumpster too.

Re-frame the first floor walls. Put in posts for the hip in the exterior walls Frame a new front gable as a true gable with real valleys. Frame a new roof and then roof the whole thing.Plans are enclosed. I'll revise the schedule.

6/27

Could be an interesting structure. Or impossible :)

Start thinking about it. Here's some things to think about.

As a 21' box it was kind of like the garage. For small roofs back 'rules of thumb work and a single 2x12 valley was all that was needed. I was reading last night that for every foot you extend the valley rafter the load increases to the 5th power. For the 24' box the valleys become single lvl117/8's.

In the most normal roof you keep the walls from bowing out with the ceiling joists. It gets tricky as the point load at the base of the valley gets big. (2/3) of the valley weight) It wants to push out the corners. But we should be able to make that OK with some corner strap fab.

The tricky part isn't the west valleys, its the east valleys. With the ~ 20'x24' box they land some 4' into the old structure way up in the air at the original ridge. Some how we are going to have to trussify the east edge of the stair landing to resist the movement out of the valleys (among other directions they want to go south and north).

The really tricky part is the hip rafters running from the old ridge to the new ridge. How do you keep them from bowing out? On the north side you could build a continuous post to the ridge and maybe have this structural tie from the top of the post to the stair platform just right of the stairs. That would be weird but maybe cool. The south hip is trickier as we started to see last night. Perhaps there will be a rod running across the ridge from base of south hip to base of north hip. Or maybe there is another solution or maybe its impossible.

This, it seems is the next thing to figure out.

Call me when you get a chance. Im out at 1:40

Dad

http://www.johnlscott.com/propertydetail.aspx?IS=1&ListingID=300069139

repeat of question: where is the drain?

Building an addition is way more difficult and time consuming than 'I have a backhoe handy why not'. The things that are most difficult to do in additions is make the connection to the existing structure so the floor and every thing line up and the roof works. You could frame a new house in the time it takes to detail the connection from one box to an existing structure. The house next door is ugly. You don't fix that by building to it. Its the south side. A couple of fruit trees would be more valuable as a buffer than would building a bigger box.

Critique of Tobin's plan:

Hard to talk about a plan not to scale, you got a scanner?

in general:

It seems big and boxy. Lumber is expensive. I don't think the roof over the porches fixes the boxiness.

If you don't do design development with closets, then you get in trouble later.

1st floor plan:

It is incredible to me how people end up using so little of their houses. I think it's because rooms are too big and spread apart. A home really only has one center and that's where people want to hang out. It always includes the kitchen. Here your living room area is so remote from your kitchen. The space between the woodstove and the table and the space between the table and the stairs seem too big, too uninteresting and too expensive. The dining room table is the focal point of the house. It seems odd to me.

My tendency is to think of the stair as the core of the house. Your eye move around and up.

Your structure and walls are there to create spaces. Interior walls are responsible for creating spaces on both sides. The walls of the bedroom and mudroom do create those spaces but do little (or actually work against) creating spaces in the main living area, it feels like they jut into it.

Porch seems so skinny. Even 6' seems too narrow, 8' seems better; you can fit around a table, walk by another person. The other challenge is solar gain on the south side. Ideally the overhang/roof structure shades the house in the summer but lets in all the winter sunlight. South west is more problematic, I'd rather be shaded by a tree than have sun in the summer afternoon. In winter when the leaves are gone you can take all that gain.

2nd floor:

3 new full baths? There goes most of your $30,000

The 2nd floor bath on south side is under the existing roof plan. You need to reconfigure the roof to accommodate it.

I find the common space to seem large, awkward and uninteresting.

Critique of Tim's plan:

in general:

I think the first floor plan works and the second floor plan doesn't. The second floor really needs to be 3' wider and 2' closer to the garage (still 6' away) in order to accommodate 2 bedrooms a bath a study and lots of closet space.

1st floor:

I think the main problems are what feels like inefficiency of the space outside the bathroom and bedroom. Perhaps the bedroom closet would be better off on the bath wall. I think you could grab more of that space for the bath.

2nd floor:

11' seems to be a better minimum for bedroom dimension, not including closets. 3' wider takes you taller too. Maybe tall enough to think of a little loft in the center.

Buidability:

The game as I see it is to build the smallest amount possible and get the biggest bang for the buck. with $35,000 you are in the business of cost optimization, big time.

If you start fucking around with adding boxes on multiple sides you'd be better off blowing up the existing house, You'll spend less time and money. Unfortunately you won't have a place to live.

Which brings me to the other constraint. How to build this while you live there so the dog and the girlfriend don't dump you before you finish it (if you ever do).

First you keep it simple. Second you keep the work are as localized as possible. Third you divide the work into

This is how I thought of building what i drew:

• plans filed day after closing

• plans approved 7/14

• phase 1: big box
  • a: (july 17-23) sub this out if you can get it done this week

excavation/foundation behind house. Probably only need 3 sides; along the existing u just need 2-3 2'x2' footings for columns since that whole wall will likely open to the existing house.

• • b:(july 25- 31) (crew of 4, 9 hr days, 8 days)

Frame roof windows tyvek.

• phase 2: move to f1 bedroom

Create 1st floor bedroom, move into it. You can do this since south side of the existing roof isn't getting changed. Well actually it is getting changed a bit. Forget it. It will take to long. Move to basement of Portland library for a week and a half.

• phase 3: (August 1-21) connect and finish the roofs.

• • Take off roof from south side of stairs north. demo and cleanup 1.5 days (I'll be at beach)

• • Put in the south hip rafter beams. There will be a hole on the ridge to pick up the support for the hip rafter running from ridge to new structure. For the section south of the stairs the new roof will just be slapped over the old. 1 day

• • Put in north side hip rafter beam and beam under gable window. 1 day

• • Frame and sheath the new east roof 1 day

• • Frame east gable and roof. 2 days

• • Complete the north and south sections and connect to addition. 2 days

• • • complete roof 5 days
    • start roofing finished sections crew of 2 while...
    • strip roof of existing 1 person while
    • dig and pour porch corner pier while

• • • frame porch roof overlaid on existing

• phase 4 (August 24-Sept 1)
  • create temporary functional living space

• phase 5: (fall/winter/spring) Tim comes for Christmas, February and April Break.
• interior framing, mechanicals, electrical,insulation sheet rock.

phase 6: (finish carpentry )

On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 2:04 AM, Tobin McKenna <tobinmckenna@gmail.com> wrote:

   Tim,

   This thing about not going full width is killing me.  I feel like if we are renting an excavator bob cat we should be able to excavate to extend that front corner out for full width. 

   If we don't, we are basically leaving space for a driveway that we don't need and not taking advantage of the width the alley affords us.  All it gives you is a side yard that's pretty useless space with a view of a big garage.

   So I guess I need you to convince me if you really think this is the wrong way to go.

   -tobin

> On 24 Jun 2011 20:11, "Tim McKenna" <mckenna.tim@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, I am looking for a room from Aug 9 September 5. My son just bought a house in NE (4505 N Haight Ave) and we are going to frame an addition. I am coming from Jamaica Plain, Boston. I built houses here for 30 years. On 9/5 I get on a plane and go back to teach high school the next day. While in Portland mostly I'll be working. I think I will bike back and forth to Tobin's house.

Tim

Timothy McKenna 12 Parley Vale, Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 mckenna.tim@gmail.com, http://sitebuilt.net (617) 524-0938 h (857) 498 2574 m

• level & stand
• nailguns 2
• hoses 2 + adapter
• two framing hammers
• pry bar
• nail remover
• chalk line
• saw
• drill
• hammer drill
• tool belt